ESG and Sustainability

Transcript Hanna [Weightmans]: Hello, and welcome to today's podcast hosted by Weightmans on ESG and sustainability, where we'll be discussing the twists and turns in the current political climate and the impact this is having on the work towards a liveable planet. Are we seeing the end of sustainability? Are we fighting a losing battle? Is a better world even possible? These are just some of the questions that we'll be delving into today as we explore the role of legal professionals in the changing landscape, as well as how we can collaborate with other sectors to best support clients and see the possibility to affect change in this space. Hanna [Weightmans]: My name is Hanna. I'm a trainee solicitor at Weightmans and I'm currently part of our fast-growing ESG team, which is made up of our head of ESG, environmental and regulatory lawyers, as well as expert litigators and corporate lawyers. We're a cross functional team and work with all sectors of the organization as well as our strategic partners to deliver a one stop shop for all things ESG. Hanna [Weightmans]: I'm joined by Aimée Girdwood and Christina Bartholomew of Stories Evolved, and Amy King of Paragon Impact, two of our excellent partner organizations. So let me briefly introduce our podcast guests today starting with Stories Evolved. Hanna [Weightmans]: Aimée [Stories Evolved] is a South African qualified and internationally experienced corporate attorney. She has also spent time practicing in the UK. Aimée [Stories Evolved] is a sustainability professional with a master's degree in sustainability leadership from the University of Cambridge. She's a Senior Associate at the Cambridge Institute for Sustainability Leadership and an external adviser to their global board program. Welcome, Aimée [Stories Evolved]. Hanna [Weightmans]: Christina is an American attorney and university lecturer trained at the Cambridge Institute of Sustainability Leadership. She has developed course and program content with the UN Global Compact and now seeks to equip business and legal professionals with the training, support, and strategies they need to become ESG influencers in their own organization. Hanna [Weightmans]: Together, Christina and Aimée founded Stories Evolved in 2020, which is a women-led strategy and consultancy firm that offers training and coaching support, thought leadership, and research expertise on all things ESG. They have helped businesses in the UK, Africa, and the US use ESG and sustainability as a tool to uncover growth opportunities, drive innovation, and mitigate risks. Welcome Aimée and Christina to our podcast today. Christina [Stories Evolved]: It’s lovely to be here. Hanna [Weightmans]: Turning to Paragon Impact, Amy King is the chief sustainability officer at Paragon Impact. She has a background in environmental chemistry and a deep passion for driving positive change through sustainability. She has a strong track record as a management consultant and change project manager at blue chip Financial Services Institutions, specializing in operating model design, implementation and sustainable finance. Paragon Impact Technology was established in 2021, to address the limitations of traditional ESG ratings and improve how the tangible impact is measured and rated. Using the UN sustainable development goals as a framework, Paragon Impact is an impact management and grading system with expert impact analysis support. Great to have you. Amy [Paragon Impact]: Thank you so much for having us. Hanna [Weightmans]: So, I'm really looking forward to our discussion on what seems to be quite a controversial topic in today's political climate. And I'm going to start with the big question. Are we seeing the end of ESG and sustainability? Aimée [Stories Evolved]: Thank you, Hanna. It's lovely to be here, and that's a really good question to start off with given the current climate. We've come off the back of a really disappointing COP, from a financial perspective, in Azerbaijan, a political pushback questioning the relevance of ESG and sustainability to business, which we see now particularly with the US announcing its second withdrawal from the Paris agreement, as well as plans to roll back measures aimed at reducing reliance on fossil fuels. Aimée [Stories Evolved]: But all the while, companies remain under pressure to comply with increasing regulations, some of which may now of course diverge, between the US and EU, for example, but also to meet these growing demands, that they're facing from investors and employees, for example, and also grappling with the reality that sustainability requires time, investment and often a shift in focus and mindset of the business. Aimée [Stories Evolved]: The reality too is that unsustainable practices can still deliver short term profits and all of this, and the shareholder pressure that can result from it, makes meaningful change even harder. But here is the big thing: context is everything, and this is all part of a bigger journey. Right now, we're in one of those sharp turns where things feel messy and uncertain, but the big picture hasn't changed. No business can succeed in the long term if it operates in a context of growing crises, both environmental and social, which are increasingly, of course, economic and financial. And the goal of business hasn't changed. It's still about staying in business and about making money. So, what has changed? Well, what we're seeing is a shift in how society expects companies to operate. In other words, a shift in what they believe it means for a business to operate responsibly. Aimée [Stories Evolved]: And at its core, this shift is about responsibly managing two things, (i) what your business depends on to operate successfully and (ii) the impact your business has on people and the planet. It's true that we've gone through this period of peak ‘ESG hype’ and perhaps even it was kind of a honeymoon phase, for many of us. And this is now being followed by some disillusionment and maybe even backlash. But the reality is that once you recognize the big challenges that we face as a society and as businesses operating within that space, and the role that businesses play in both causing and solving those challenges, you can't unsee them. So, my view is that what we're really witnessing is far from the end of ESG or sustainability, but we are in a messy transition to a new normal. Amy [Paragon Impact]: I'm going to bring in, Paragon Impact's view and some of the things that we're seeing on the ground with our clients. And I think having been through this, tumultuous time, we're seeing from businesses that there's a realization that sustainability isn't a separate practice within a business. It isn't just about reporting numbers. It isn't just about sustainability policy. It's inherently a product of the business and its operations, and lives within every department and process within the firm. And that's being accepted now. I think where we see these two different camps evolving is that you can either decide to embrace that reality and manage your sustainability, or you can choose not to. Inherently that involves mitigating and managing the risks that are associated with sustainability as well. But overall, we believe that businesses are, realising sustainability isn't this monolithic standalone practice, but it's just a dimension of very good corporate governance, which most businesses should be practicing anyway. Amy [Paragon Impact]: I just wanted to flag, today, we, have the first day of Davos, and that's always an interesting sound bite to see what the global business community is focusing on. And some of the top World Economic Forum thoughts for this year's annual survey are swinging back towards climate as the most pressing issues for business leaders. Whereas a lot of the pandemic-related outcomes were previously focused on. So, I just wanted to flag that the World Economic Forum members, in their 10-year horizon have prioritized in the following order: extreme weather events, critical change to earth systems, biodiversity loss and ecosystem collapse, and natural resource shortage. Amy [Paragon Impact]: So, when we go back to, thinking about that question, is sustainability dead? I can see evidence that the world's business leaders don't think that, especially with the results of that particular survey. So, I'm confident, that those leaders and hopefully, the outcomes of Davos will be very much focused on sustainability. Hanna [Weightmans]: Thank you both for those really helpful insights. I'd like to now take you both in turn and to see how Paragon impact and Stories Evolved are helping to sort of change this narrative then around sustainability. So perhaps, Christina or Aimée, can you tell me a bit more about how Stories Evolved, specifically, is helping to change this narrative around sustainability? Christina [Stories Evolved]: Sure. I'm happy to. So, change is about scale and speed, but it can't happen without people and without business buy-in. And so, let's start with some of the narratives we hear with our clients that we see causing a kind of inaction. The first is that sustainability is irrelevant to business. It's just a charity or a compliance burden. The second is that sustainability is too complicated. It's just easier to delay. Also, sustainability is only for big businesses. You know, our business is too small to really make a difference. And finally, that we've got to be perfect before we even begin to communicate what we're doing in these areas and these mindsets are creating real roadblocks. And add that to a politically polarized environment that is increasingly having, you know, people from different sides talking past each other and what you have is paralysis. But at the same time, you've got this mounting pressure to really act. Customers are worried about climate change. I looked at a Adleman Trust survey, 14 different countries, 13,000 different respondents. Over 70% of them were worried about climate change. Worried. So, it's not just an abstract idea that they might be thinking about. They have fear about it. Christina [Stories Evolved]: At the same time, employee expectations are changing, and we can talk about that a little bit further. But on top of this, you have regulations that are demanding transparency. And while the SEC disclosure requirements in the United States seem to be dead in the water, California has a significant law and also a very broad definition of what doing business in California is and that will sort of hook in a lot of businesses whether they think ESG is going away or not. Christina [Stories Evolved]: And, so in this environment, many businesses are stuck and they're asking questions like how do we meet these demands and remain competitive? And what does sustainability mean for our business? How do we navigate these challenges with a common-sense strategy that doesn't lead to overwhelm? And that's where we come in. We help to make sense of what sustainability means to a specific business. What are the risks, opportunities, and priorities for you? Not a one size fits all. And then we propose practical action, bridging a gap between knowing and doing. And the collaboration is so powerful because along with Weightmans and Paragon Impact, we can deliver that value exponentially. The conversation always starts with what's legally required and that's where Weightmans comes in, but Paragon impact helps provide evidence-based decision making and also impact measurement so with that possibility all together with strategy and a really good understanding of what the legal requirements are, we put together a bespoke strategy that simplifies an often overwhelming process. So, we consider ourselves a one stop shop for sustainability. Hanna [Weightmans]: Thank you so much. And so just building on from that then, once you've got the strategy, and you understand the legal and commercial requirements, what's next? How do you affect change? Do you have perhaps any case studies that you could expand on for us? Aimée [Stories Evolved]: Absolutely, Hanna. Thank you. And I think just building on what, Christina has just said, there's really 3 points that I'd like to highlight that kind of underpin how we think about things and helping businesses embed or really to see action arising from these strategies. And that's going back to first principles, building understanding and a shared language, and translating that understanding into action to ensure credibility. And that's crucial. Credibility leads to trust, and that's really the basis of businesses and their relationship with their clients, the investors, their customers. Aimée [Stories Evolved]: So, coming back to those three points, we recognize every business, and its context is unique and the danger always of course, with consultants when they come in, I think is that there is at least a perception that they're going to come in and impose their own thinking. But we recognize that no one knows a business better than its own people. And so, our role is really to build on that internal expertise and layer it with our deep understanding of sustainability's complexities and nuances, which, you know, we've really developed over many years, engaging in different jurisdictions with different kinds of businesses. Aimée [Stories Evolved]: And now of course, through our collaboration with Weightmans, legal expertise and the ability to rely on Paragon’s evidence-based analysis, we can really offer a powerful well-rounded approach to creating meaningful change. I think the other thing to say is that change is not about imposing a one size fits all solution, and that's what often worries me in the context of ESG and sustainability. I think it can appear to kind of not be rocket science and in many cases it isn't, but the nuances and the context matter hugely. And so, really it's about working with businesses to help them align decisions and actions that they make around sustainability in ways that are relevant to their business and practical for their business. Aimée [Stories Evolved]: So, here's how we do that. We always go back to first principles. What are a business's key impacts and dependencies? We look to uncover risks that could hinder success and of course opportunities that could drive it forward. And again, that's where the information and the data that we have access to in our relationship with Paragon is really incredibly powerful. So that foundational analysis helps align commitments and strategies. So, in other words, what the business thinks it should be doing with how it operates and makes decisions, what it's actually doing, and that there again is the action piece and the credibility and the trust building piece. Aimée [Stories Evolved]: The second thing which we found incredibly important in the projects we've worked on is building understanding and shared language within the organization. For change to stick, everyone in the organization needs a common understanding of what sustainability means to the business, but also how it connects to their work, to their every day. And we extract those through various different methods. We conduct internal surveys, we conduct interviews, and those are driven at or focused on uncovering strengths and gaps and expectations. Sometimes we see that they're quite differing views between the executive team, for example, on strategies and policies and how they're being implemented and different teams within the business. We review existing strategies, processes and policies through detailed due diligence. We often find that there can be conflicts between what the business says it wants to do and its ability to implement what it wants to do given the policies that it has in place, and upskilling teams to speak a shared language and see its relevance to the core of the business. And that's really important, that age-old adage of culture eating strategy for breakfast, and it being one thing to have a strategy that exists on paper and another thing for it actually to be the lived reality of a business. Aimée [Stories Evolved]: And a good example of that is some work we did with an offshore arm of a large African bank. That was quite interesting because it was an African holding business with an offshore subsidiary. And so, differences in how the holding business and the subsidiary think about sustainability and the key challenges and opportunities arising from that. The project was really to help them update their strategy and translate it into practical actions. And what we found was that by addressing assumptions and clarifying misunderstandings within the executive team, that that facilitated some really quite tough but productive conversations that led to real alignment, and a strong foundation that has gone on to lead to some credible action on the part of the business. Aimée [Stories Evolved]: The final point is, of course, translating that understanding into action to ensure credibility. Sustainability isn't about understanding, or not just about it, it's about doing. And I think that's really the hard part that lots of businesses are trying to get their heads around at the moment. And so, what we seek to do is help businesses prioritise actions, identify what to continue doing - because often they're already doing some very good things that they can build on - but also what they may need to stop doing or start doing and help them prioritize and separate quick wins from long term goals. And then it's about embedding sustainability into everyday practices and that's that governance element that Amy [Paragon Impact] spoke about earlier. So, for example, aligning procurement policies with commitments the business has, or incentivizing employees to actually implement some of these changes in their day-to-day work so that they're remunerated for how they are behaving in alignment with the policies. Aimée [Stories Evolved]: And just, an example in that regard is, a multinational organization we worked with. Our purpose was to work with them to develop an ESG strategy and integrate it with their business goals. We worked a lot with both the leadership team and the broader employee base to ensure that everybody had the same understanding, was on the same page, and that involved everything from kind of, workshops with the executive team to large town halls with the business to team specific sessions to ensure that there was the shared and common understanding and that that translated into a strategy and then could filter down into different actions that could be implemented within the business, and really lead to measurable impact. Hanna [Weightmans]: I like that idea of it being really like a bespoke challenge. So, you know, we've got a global issue, but it's bespoke to each business. So, starting with first principles, building this understanding and shared language, and then translating it into action. I think that's really powerful. Thank you, Aimée [Stories Evolved]. And then in terms of Paragon Impact's work, Amy [Paragon Impact], how would you say that your work promotes good practice within a business in terms of more measurable impact? Amy [Paragon Impact]: Sure. So, a lot of the reasons why clients are wanting to measure their impact is coming from an emphasis put on the business by particularly investors wanting to understand how their investments are generating sustainable impact. There seems to be a maturity and an interest from investors in the sustainable performance of their assets. So that's one driver. And just this maturation of stakeholders such as employees and clients around, you know, what is the impact or sustainable outcomes that you're having as a business and being able to demonstrate your performance, beyond ESG, as Aimée [Stories Evolved] mentioned, not just kind of having that standard data presentation, but really understanding the context. So how good is that? What does that mean? You've got this carbon emission. Is that a lot or is it a little? You know, how good are you? And that's really where impact measurement comes in. It contextualizes that ESG performance to the operational jurisdiction of the business. So, if you're in a developed country, your context is going to be very different if you're in a developing country, and we help set that context and the sustainable performance against it. Amy [Paragon Impact]: And for many businesses, trying to answer the quick key question, what are the most material impacts your business is likely to be having is something that many just simply can't answer. This is sometimes because many businesses think that they have to solve everything to do with sustainability. They look at the 17 sustainable development goals and think that if they want to be a sustainable business, they have to solve for all of them, which is something that we very quickly try and allay their concerns on because the reality is that a business should only focus on those issues that they have control over, that they have strategic intent on. And in reality, when you look at a business's, industry and operational location and size, it will determine what those most material sustainable issues are. And those are the things that we believe businesses should focus on. And, you know, that's where you're going to get the most bang for your buck in terms of investing in sustainability. Amy [Paragon Impact]: Once businesses have gone through our methodology and it is a very much an analysis-based methodology trying to measure that impact, we find our clients can then confidently articulate what their sustainable impacts are. They can answer the question, what is your most material sustainable impact? And they can share that narrative with their stakeholders and, you know, seek to engage more deeply with their stakeholders to understand whether those impacts are being felt by them and how they're being felt by them. And, again, it just goes back to a much deeper practice within a business for good sustainability, having that knowledge available to you. Hanna [Weightmans]: Absolutely. Thank you, Amy [Paragon Impact]. I recently heard the phrase, ‘you can't manage what you don't measure’. So, kind of going back to basics and looking at where you're at, what the data is, and what you can impact, is really useful. And that kind of brings in this new angle of sustainability. So, we've talked about opportunities. We have talked about measurable impact. But, of course, there are also risks that you'll need to navigate. So, in your opinion, how are businesses, particularly mid-sized organizations or those who are just starting out? How are they finding support for their, ESG or sustainability programs? Amy [Paragon Impact]: Firstly, it would be meeting that stakeholder demand that I just spoke to there. But, in terms of the macro trends that we're seeing, we know that younger generations are demanding sustainability performance from employers or from the goods that they're buying. So, to ignore that trend would be problematic for many businesses. The employee-stakeholder dimension seems to be very well supported now. There’s quite an interesting statistic that on a webpage of a business' websites, the most clicks are for the, I think, careers page. But after the careers page, the sustainability page is up there with the most clicked on part of a business' website because potential employees are wanting to understand that sustainability strategy, wanting to understand what the business is committing to regarding sustainability. And it's a new competitive dimension for businesses to attract the best talent and retain it as well. Amy [Paragon Impact]: But as I mentioned before, I think in terms of the stakeholder who's the most important to influence for business, it's still that investor stakeholder. We believe that there's still a lot of assumptions around this belief that when you invest in a firm that is prioritising sustainability, you might be compromising financial return. That's something that doesn't seem to have, I don't believe, been shaken all yet and it might be a generational issue. But I do believe it is outdated because as we find firms who are choosing to measure their impact, who are choosing to invest in these fantastic strategies, such as Stories Evolved are delivering, and integrate that sustainability into the narratives and the daily practice of the firm, you're going to get, you know, the financial return and you're going to get the sustainability return as well. I think that that's just inevitable. And if you don't get on board, I really think that competitive advantage might slip. The window is now. Christina [Stories Evolved]: Can I just follow on to add to a couple of comments that you made, Amy [Paragon Impact]? The first is that it's not just beginning with the career opportunities that young people have. They're also looking at the sustainability strategies of the universities that they attend. So, we're seeing really right from the start, a desire to think about their future in these terms. So, I agree it is an important macro trend. Christina [Stories Evolved]: And the other thing, that I obviously I agree with you on, is the financial performance not being compromised, but in fact enhanced by sustainability. The Stern School of Business, from the New York NYU in the United States has analysed over 1,000 studies related to sustainable investment and performance. And they concur that in fact it is an important addition to what businesses can do, how they can perform financially. But, you know, continuing on with what you said about employees and what they're looking for, we concur we're definitely seeing enthusiasm for ESG and sustainability, amongst employees, which is fantastic. But the challenge is translating that support into meaningful action. And global surveys are consistently highlighting two main obstacles. And the first is lack of leadership understanding and buy in. So, at the top level, there's a lot more trepidation and a lot less understanding about how sustainability feeds into their business model. And then, with regard to the employees, there's a skills gap. So, that will slow down change, and certainly the pace and scale that change of change that is really needed. And that's why so much of our work focuses on two key areas. Christina [Stories Evolved]: The first is engaging leadership and Aimée [Stories Evolved] gave some great examples of how we've done that. But generally, we work with boards and executives to sort of build an understanding and secure their commitment to driving change. Without that leadership buy-in, it's very hard to make progress. And the second area is upskilling employees. Giving them the right tools and the training and also the confidence to turn intent into impact. And I would say that for businesses just starting out, it's really about creating a solid foundation, you know, training leaders, so that they have ability to lead in this area, engaging and upskilling employees, and developing a clear strategy for success. Hanna [Weightmans]: Absolutely. Thank you, Christina [Stories Evolved]. And we've really seen that education piece be so impactful, particularly at Weightmans and then in terms of educating different departments, educating different clients, and then that creates a great foundation. So, related to that previous question, and thinking about our collaboration and our strategic partnerships, how can we use those effectively, would you say, to accelerate sustainability programs for our clients? Amy [Paragon Impact]: At Paragon Impact, we use the seventeen sustainable development goals as our benchmark through which we measure impact. And one of our favourites is SDG seventeen: partnership for the goals. Partnerships are sustainable. We know sustainability still has quite niche areas of practice and, you know, we bring together our niche practices within this particular partnership today. And we unify our niches, notably impact measurement, deep governance practice, that leadership angle and legal ESG advisory to create something that is greater than each of our parts. And it's unique in the marketplace, I believe. Amy [Paragon Impact]: We've got many years of firsthand experience and all these fantastic case studies, from the clients that we've worked with. And those clients have been the leaders of sustainability. They've been the first movers. They've been the ones who've been pioneering the way, and we've been learning through them. So, you know, I think as we see sustainability become more regulated, become more commonplace, being able to leverage the learnings of those front-runners is going to be really important so that we can deliver at the pace that we require to meet those scientific trajectories that we have to hit in order for us to stay within all the safe operating boundaries of the planet. Amy [Paragon Impact]: I think that we do have this very unique partnership and not only the different practices but also practices from very different jurisdictions. So, we've got case studies from South Africa, case studies from the US, case studies from the UK. And one thing we find with sustainability is that there is such a different approach in different geographical jurisdictions. So, again, bringing that knowledge together in one pot is extremely powerful. Christina [Stories Evolved]: Agreed. Hanna [Weightmans]: I'm very conscious of time at the moment, but before we wrap up, I'd like to hear your thoughts on your advice to businesses. So, what would you say is your key advice in keeping up with these changing legal and policy requirements as well as consumer demands in the evolving sustainability climate? Amy [Paragon Impact]: I'm going to go over to Stories Evolved for that to hear from them first. Aimée [Stories Evolved]: Thanks, Amy [Paragon Impact]. I think if I listen to the words that have been coming up, there's so much that is around complexity and nuance and change. And so for us, keeping up with this evolving landscape really requires more than just reacting to it. It's about proactively understanding and preparing for what's next. And of course, that's not easy for every business to do. They are focusing on their business. But that's absolutely where, where we come in because - exactly as you were saying, Amy [Paragon Impact] - because of our experience, because of the different cases we've worked on in different areas and our knowledge of what's happening and what's coming, it really enables us to be aware of the current issues, but also to horizon scan, for Weightmans to track laws and policies, for example, and how those are shifting for us to have an understanding of how client expectations and competitor actions, which is an important aspect we haven't spoken about yet, are also evolving. Aimée [Stories Evolved]: And this enables us to help businesses not to have blind spots that you otherwise might have, but be able to anticipate changes and understand how these shifts will impact your operations. And just a good example of that is some work that we're doing with an insurance company. And this particular insurance company, like many insurance businesses and businesses all over the world, are focusing very strongly on net zero. That's a dominant focus. But our work is around pulling out that kind of interlinking between biodiversity and their ability to reach their net zero goals because, of course, those two issues are completely interrelated and what are the implications of that for the goals that they've set for themselves, for their strategies and for their supply chains, for example. Aimée [Stories Evolved]: So, we think that through our partnership with, with Paragon and with Weightmans, we can really help businesses stay ahead of these shifts. I don’t know if you want to add to that? Amy [Paragon Impact]: I completely agree. You know, the world is only going to become more complex. There's going to be more regulation. There's going to be more micro and macro shocks inevitably. And, that horizon scanning is absolutely fundamental as a unique business practice. So, we hope that most boards and execs are doing that horizon scanning. But it's sometimes hard to do that within the noise of daily, you know, running the business. And I think that's again where we can step in because we do a lot of that horizon scanning on other people's behalf. We can see these trends that are likely to come, you know, one to five to ten to fifty years down the line, and help people understand and anticipate these things, in a world that will, I don't think, get any simpler. Actually, I think it, you know, it will become more complex. It will become more, challenging. But in that, there's always, you know, there's always opportunity. And, you know, we horizon scan the opportunities as well as the risks. Hanna [Weightmans]: I really like that. And then, obviously, in terms of, Weightmans’ legal professionals, we're no stranger to regular horizon scanning. There's always legal developments and regulatory changes. And it's been really great working with Paragon and Stories Evolved as well to get those very different perspectives, of horizon scanning and the different kind of risks and opportunities for business and sustainability. So then just to wrap up and go back to our earlier question and the general theme of this podcast, are we seeing the end of ESG and sustainability or is this really just the beginning? Amy [Paragon Impact]: I empathize with those people who are fatigued by sustainability. You know, it's complex, sometimes perceived as complex, it can sometimes feel intangible and hard to measure. And it's competing with all the other key strategic priorities that you need to run the business. And we can see that AI, cybersecurity, and regulation are other competitive considerations for leaders. But sustainability has been and will always be here. It's a vital component for thriving businesses and thriving economies. So, I think it's about, you know, little and often. It doesn't have to be a big program-level piece of change. It's about embedding the practice in daily, activities in the firm. Christina [Stories Evolved]: That's great, I completely agree with you. And, I would say that if we've done our job today, we've convinced the listeners of two main things. And the first is that sustainability isn't just a nice to have, or only a moral obligation. It's really a business imperative. You know, it's not about adding a feel-good strategy to your core operations. It's really about, as you said, embedding that resilience and long-term success into your business model. And the question isn't really about what sustainable activities your business can afford, it's how your business can navigate and thrive in the transition to a more sustainable future. Christina [Stories Evolved]: And, you know, we really feel that businesses that fail to act are really risking falling behind. Well, those that embrace it are unlocking opportunities, you know, for not just for innovation and growth, but for competitive advantage. And then the second thing I would say is that you don't have to figure it out alone. You know, what we're offering here is sort of expertise, between our different lenses, that can help turn sustainability into a strategic advantage and not just a compliance checkbox. The future of ESG and sustainability, to answer your question, Hanna [Weightmans], is about adaptation, innovation, and leadership. And I'd say that we're here to help. So, let's talk. Hanna [Weightmans]: Amazing. And I think that's a really great note for us to end on. So, you know, as mentioned, sustainability is a vital part of business conduct, risk management and ultimately the long-term success of an organization. And thank you, Christina, I like that point. You don't have to figure this out alone. As we've just, discussed today, at Weightmans we're here to provide legal expertise to clients and help navigate regulations with confidence. Paragon Impact offers data driven analysis to measure and guide decision making, and Stories Evolved helps translate these insights into actionable strategies, meaningful narratives and empower businesses to act with clarity and credibility. So, thank you so much to all of you for your time today. This has been a really interesting discussion. And to our listeners, we hope you've enjoyed learning more about navigating the ESG challenges. And please get in touch. Let us know your thoughts. Let us know how we can help. And as Christina [Stories Evolved] said, let's talk. Aimee [Stories Evolved]: Absolutely, thanks Hanna, thank you everybody.